Please find hereunder a record of the transcript in question:
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Chairman SHELBY. Thank you.
Ms. St. John, just a quick question here, and then I will move on. Would it be fair to say that FICO scores can only be as good as the baseline information used to develop them, that is, accuracy is everything here, is it not?
Ms. ST. JOHN. Yes. The FICO scores use all of the factors proven predictive of credit risk based on the credit reports information.
Chairman SHELBY. You need accuracy. You need the information in the report to do it right, don’t you?
Ms. ST. JOHN. Well, you certainly need a base level of informa-tion for those scores to be predictive, definitely.
Chairman SHELBY. Right.
Mr. Hildebrand, I assume that Capital One wants to have a good understanding about the credit history of its potential customers. In other words, your underwriters need information to make under-writing decisions like everybody that extends credit.
Mr. HILDEBRAND. Absolutely.
Chairman SHELBY. So as consumers of information, you are fully supportive of its widespread availability?
Mr. HILDEBRAND. Yes.
Chairman SHELBY. But as providers of information, you seem to have adopted a different perspective from what the staff has told us. They say you deliberately withhold furnishing to credit bureaus important customer information, information which has a material bearing on your customers’ eligibility for credit. Some have claimed that Capital One, your company, is gaming the system to prevent its customers from appearing like worthwhile marketing targets to your competitors in the marketplace. Do you think your customers know of, let alone understand, Capital One’s policy with respect to furnishing information to the credit bureaus? Quick answer.
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Mr. HILDEBRAND. So you speak about our reporting of credit lines?
Chairman SHELBY. Yes, under reporting stuff. Our staff has said——
Mr. HILDEBRAND. One specific variable that has been cited is the reporting of credit lines, Senator.
Chairman SHELBY. You said you do that because if you report it all, then the customer might have a better shot in the market.
Mr. HILDEBRAND. We have not seen any research yet that indi-cates that this is in any way impactful on consumers. we have agreed to team up with Fair Isaac to actually look into this.
Chairman SHELBY. But you do not deny doing it, I would hope?
Mr. HILDEBRAND. No, no, we do not report customer’s credit line, that is correct.
Chairman SHELBY. Well, why don’t you report it, because accu-racy is so important?
Mr. HILDEBRAND. It is a proprietary issue for us. At Capital One, one of the ways we manage risk, quite appropriately, is through the granting of credit lines, and the way that we manage that is called ‘‘credit line sloping.’’ We believe that is a competitive tool that we use better than anybody else in America. Our concern is that if we were to report that, our competitors could reverse engi-neer our credit policies and replicate that. It is an advantage that we have in the marketplace.
Chairman SHELBY. But on the other hand, what about accuracy? If I was doing business with you or anybody, I would want my re-port coming from Ms. St. John’s company or whoever does this, to reflect everything I have to be accurate. In other words, how can the other people determine the report that comes out to be accurate if you do not, as a creditor, furnish that information to the credit bureau or if you skew the information?
Mr. HILDEBRAND. We do not yet——
Chairman SHELBY. I know you do it for proprietary reasons, but the customers out there, which is all Americans, do not know that.
Mr. HILDEBRAND. No, they do not. And as I said, Senator, we do not yet have any evidence that it actually has an impact on the ac-curacy of their credit score. If we receive that, we will certainly re-consider our policy.
Chairman SHELBY. But it could have some impact on whether or not the customers can go somewhere to shop for better.
Mr. HILDEBRAND. That is possible.
Chairman SHELBY. Could it not? Sure.
Mr. Plunkett, do you think the average consumer in America un-derstands that they can suffer negative consequences because a firm they have a credit relationship with decides to underreport in-formation regarding their credit history?
Mr. PLUNKETT. Senator, the answer is no. Our survey shows that, we asked a specific question here, that the majority of Ameri-cans do not understand.
Chairman SHELBY. Do you think that the average consumer un-derstands that they may suffer, yes, suffer negative consequences because a firm they obtained credit from decides to underreport in-formation regarding their credit history, same fact?
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Mr. PLUNKETT. Same answer, Senator. They do not understand they can suffer and this actually harms their overall credit score.
Chairman SHELBY. Would you agree that firms, that everybody that is in the marketplace, with credit so available, and accuracy so important, need to either furnish complete and accurate infor-mation to the credit bureaus or they need to inform their customers about their policy of limiting reporting?
Mr. PLUNKETT. Senator, we think the first is absolutely essential. We need a requirement for complete reporting. As for informing customers on this one, this is an unethical practice. The experts on credit reporting and credit scoring tell us that it is very, very likely that this is a ding on the credit report. We know that if you look maxed out on your credit card, that is, you have a $500 balance and it looks like your credit line is $500, that that almost certainly is used as a negative factor in some way in calculating your credit score. Absolutely, it should be required that this information be re-ported. Telling consumers about it after the fact, I do not know that that helps them very much on this one, because the point of the whole credit reporting system is to have accurate and complete information.
Chairman SHELBY. Senator Sarbanes.
Senator SARBANES. Mr. Chairman, I want to take a moment or two to follow up on your line of questioning that you were pur-suing. I think it is important.
Ms. ST. John, in your statement you say that 30 percent of your FICO score is determined on the basis of amount owed.
Ms. ST. JOHN. Yes.
Senator SARBANES. And you list as one of the factors under amounts owed proportion of credit lines used, proportion of bal-ances to total credit limits on certain types of revolving accounts. So you would look to see—maybe you have a $5,000 limit—whether you would use $500 of it or $4,500 of it. Is that correct?
Ms. ST. JOHN. Yes.
Senator SARBANES. Okay.
Ms. ST. JOHN. The amount of available credit line that is actually used and the balance owing been proven to be predictive factors.
Senator SARBANES. And the higher percentage of the available credit on a particular credit line a consumer is using could hurt their credit score. Is that correct?
Ms. ST. JOHN. In general, the pattern that we see is the higher the percentage of the line utilized, the greater the risk of non-payment in the future, yes.
Senator SARBANES. How do you determine what a consumer’s credit limit is on any given line of credit?
Ms. ST. JOHN. There are several different fields that are avail-able that vary by the different credit reporting agencies. Some have a specific credit limit amount. Others represent a high credit amount that has been reached. The scoring systems use a variety of information to determine that high credit amount. If the credit
limit is missing, it may look to see if there is other information that is available that can be used that has been proven predictive in the calculation of that ratio.
Senator SARBANES. The credit limit reported by the creditor, is that where that information comes from, presumably?
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Ms. ST. JOHN. Yes.
Senator SARBANES. All right. Now, is the creditor required to re-port that information?
Ms. ST. JOHN. No.
Senator SARBANES. What happens if a creditor does not report a credit limit maximum for a particular credit line?
Ms. ST. JOHN. It depends on the specific algorithm or the pre-dictive variable that is being calculated. In some cases, the vari-ables may default to a high credit amount or another field that is available. In other cases, it may bypass that particular account from the calculation altogether if it cannot contribute to the cal-culation overall. The end result is that the individual score for any given consumer in that situation could be higher or could be lower, depending on the ratio of credit used relative to the limits on all their other accounts.
Senator SARBANES. On the particular credit line, isn’t the highest amount charged reported as the maximum?
Ms. ST. JOHN. Depending on the credit reporting agency, yes, the highest amount actually reported is——
Senator SARBANES. So if the creditor did not report the maximum score, that could artificially depress a consumer’s credit score be-cause it would make it appear he had maxed out or was close to maxing out, when, in fact, that was not the case. Is that right?
Ms. ST. JOHN. It actually depends on what the current balance is at the time relative to whatever the maximum balance may have been. If they are carrying a very low balance at the time relative to the highest amount reached historically on that file——
Senator SARBANES. Let’s assume that——
Ms. ST. JOHN. —it could be lower.
Senator SARBANES. —the maximum balance they ever had was far short of what the credit limit was. So you could end up—let’s say my maximum balance has been $500. I have $400 on my card. My limit is $5,000. But I am going to get reported as though I am at 80 percent of my usable money, as I understand what you are telling me, rather than getting reported at 8 percent. Is that right?
Ms. ST. JOHN. It actually depends on what the total limits out-standing are across all revolving trade lines and the total balance is across all. So it’s not calculated on an individual account or trade line basis, but across all revolving accounts on the credit report.
Senator SARBANES. If that is my only revolving account?
Ms. ST. JOHN. If that is your only revolving account and is the maximum balance reached, then, yes, it would be lower. It would likely result in a higher calculation.
Senator SARBANES. Well, I just want to ask Mr. Hildebrand. Does Capital One report the maximums on the credit limits?
Mr. HILDEBRAND. We do not report the credit limit, the credit line that has been granted. We report the amount outstanding.
Senator SARBANES. Yes, so the person, this hypothetical person I have been describing, would really get a black mark when they do not deserve it. Isn’t that the case?
Mr. HILDEBRAND. To paraphase Ms. St. John, it depends on the broad spectrum of the credit that you are looking at as the score is developed. The score is developed looking at the entire credit profile coming from the bureau.
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Senator SARBANES. I understand that, but this is one factor in there.
Mr. HILDEBRAND. It is one factor.
Senator SARBANES. As far as this factor is concerned, clearly a negative mark is going to register against the consumer when they do not deserve that negative mark.
Mr. HILDEBRAND. Senator, there are other scenarios that could be constructed that it is just as positive for consumers. And that is the research we are trying to do, to understand the impact that this would have. We certainly do not want to do anything detri-mental to American consumers. We have a business to run as well. That is what we are trying to protect here. And so we have to bal-ance those two. Right now it is a voluntary system.
Senator SARBANES. Are you unique amongst businesses in fol-lowing this path?
Mr. HILDEBRAND. I do not know.
Mr. PLUNKETT. Senator, I can tell you from our survey and our study in December, from the Federal Reserve study in February of this year in which they looked at 248,000 credit reports. Capital One is likely not the only one using this practice. The Fed study, one of their conclusions, by the way, was that the use of this posi-tive information does overstate risk for particular consumers. The other point I would make is that one of the standard generic explanations that consumers get when they get that adverse notice we have been talking about is, ‘‘Proportion of debt to available credit.’’ That means this is one of the reasons why your credit his-tory, your credit report and your credit score, is not as high as it could be.
Senator SARBANES. I have used a lot of time on that, but I——
Chairman SHELBY. It has been very informative.
Senator SARBANES. It is an important point.
Chairman SHELBY. Senator Bennett.
Senator BENNETT. Thank you. I think it is an important point as well, and I think we should dig a little further into it. Where it leads is where I am not quite sure I want to go, which is legislation laying out the requirement as to what the provider of information has to provide by law. Currently, it is entirely vol-untary, is it not?
Mr. HILDEBRAND. Yes, it is.
Senator BENNETT. Now, everybody who participates in the sys-tem has a vested interest in seeing that the system works. And, therefore, you are going to be as cooperative as you possibly can in providing information that you think will help the system work. If legislation comes in and says, okay, we are going to determine, by the wisdom of Congress, that the following things must be re-ported by every provider, with fines or other kinds of punitive ac-tion taken by the Government against a provider that does not fill in every single aspect of the blank, it conjures up, for me, a world that I am not really comfortable with because it means the Govern-ment virtually has taken ownership of this process, and the next step, Mr. Winston, is that the FTC runs it, Fair Isaac goes out of business, the FTC is giving scores, Congress is mandating what will be considered and what will not. And I think somebody out there is going to figure out a way to game that and get around it